That's if they realize they're using the subterranean tunnels. Even Oobleck, who has a doctorate in history, didn't immediately think of the tunnels. Oobleck states that the tunnels were sealed off, likely by collapsing them so the Grimm couldn't just dig back through, so they're not going to come to mind without knowing that the WF has been there long enough to excavate the tunnels and restore the train lines.
Oobleck realized this after a single day of being in the area and as I pointed out in the post itself, should have remembered it to begin with and not when it was cinematically appropriate. The point is, it's not knowledge he had to stumble on.
They moved IN without anyone noticing (because Ozpin apparently does not regularly sent scouting parties to anywhere bandits could hole up; thank you, Ozpin). It would also depend on the size of the force they're scouting out--if it's a small group, again, they can rabbit off quickly. Even if it's a large group, given that they're a guerilla force, they're going to have experience with having to move quickly or hide effectively because that's how guerilla forces operate.
Except they aren't a guerilla force. They are extremists who have been taking potshots at dust shops, have primarily been working robberies on this continent, and there are no neighboring cities' ruins we've heard about, so they only place they'd be "rabbiting off" too is deeper into caves that could still be attacked or would subject them to Grimm attacks, or open no-man's-land which belongs entirely to the Grimm. I'm serious--where do you think they'll "rabbit off" to? The only non-hostile place they could go is right back inside the kingdom limits! They also moved in over an unspecified, but likely very long time, because, you know, establishing a full-on base ready to launch an attack takes time. There's no reason to assume they could vanish into thin air in the time it takes for a few airships to swing over, unload a shit ton of artillery, and leave.
*tired* Aside from Penny, please name me one time Ironwood handles something subtly and discreetly in this volume.
Penny happens to be a very good example, as opposed to his so-far established example of fucking up via indiscretion of, uh, let's see, zero. Maybe you don't like Ironwood, but I'm trying to think outside of the in-story perspective, aka, not swallowing the tantrum Glynda and Oz threw painting Ironwood as brash and incautious. Sorry.
There's a reason why Ozpin says "the flag bearers or the scouts." Again, they don't know that the tunnels are in play because when they sealed them off, they did something to the tunnels that would keep Grimm from just digging through
That doesn't mean they wouldn't know at all. It just means they have another defense to examine now they've been penetrated and compromised. Physically impassible by conventional means does not mean it isn't on the table.
--reminder that Mountain Glenn's last-ditch effort to survive was because they accidentally uncovered a cave of SUBTERRANEAN Grimm. The reason there's still a wall between the train and the city of Vale proper is because they're planning a surprise attack to maximize the panic and confusion that'll bring along the Grimm (along with using the wall fragments themselves as shrapnel.
Yessss, and? The point I'm trying to make here is that you're trying to pin down any decisive action Ironwood or Ozpin could take against the enemy hideout as an inherently bad idea because somehow, some way, the enemy will surely turn it against them, and that's simply not true.
And if you don't reinforce your defenses after they've been breached, then they're going to keep getting breached because they're weak points now, and it's going to bleed away your strength.
You do not seal up a wall to keep enemies out when the enemies are inside the wall with you. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. I'm all for defense, I just want it understood that focusing exclusively on it, without even being able to identify the infiltration or compromised material, and giving the enemy time to pounce on it, is a very stupid idea.
I agree that Ozpin could start preparing to send out a skirmishing force, but sending out everything they have means they have fewer people inside to defend if we have a "goldcloaks from A Song of Ice and Fire" scenario.
Got no idea what that means, but again: they don't have to send everything they have. Why on earth would they need to? It's a hideout, not an entire enemy nation.
Look, I'm going to be honest with you here: I tried looking up "prowling wolf fallacy" and nothing came up; I legitimately think you made it up.
That's because I did. You're saying this like I tried to cite something I invented for an essay, and I didn't. It's a subcount. If it were a trope or other established convention, I'd have linked it.
That said, the fallacy itself is a fallacy because if you're in a situation with a wolf where you only have two options are those are "hide" and "attack," then quite frankly, you're... you've somehow managed to corner yourself in situation where those are the only two options, and that's BAD. Aside from how you should avoid wolves like the plague because they tend to come in packs (yes, I know this is a metaphor, work with me here)
No! I'm not going to work with you here because that's what the goddamn count is meant to tally! It is a count designed to tally how Rooster Teeth have written only two options and completely failed to account for why both should be considered, nevermind more than the ones presented! How did you see me lay out how the fallacy here is about falsely seeing only one available path, and say this?
Can you please try to listen to what I'm saying before you start trying to prove me wrong?
Because a. Ozpin's actions make sense and b. there would have been an even bigger bloodbath if Ironwood's forces hadn't been stationed in the city. If Ironwood had gone charging off like he wanted to, Torchwick would have started the attack and then there would be fewer defenders to keep the Grimm from overrunning the city.
I'm straight up about to just call you on being bad at math. This is narrow-minded as hell, why do you keep acting like any attacking force must comprise enough resources to leave the home base vulnerable? That's not an accurate portrayal of military resources or strategy.
And yes, Ironwood WOULD throw everything he has at it. You've watched the series up through volume 6, when has he not treated everything like a nail that needs to be hammered with great blunt force. Name me one time.
Yes, I have. And this happens to be Volume Two. I am well within my rights to consider only material shown at that point in plots shown at that point! If anything, I don't know why you want to involve material written five years afterwards in a discussion on plausible alternate plots taking place back here. At this point in time, here is our cite-able evidence: a) Glynda throwing a foot-stomping, insulting tantrum designed to paint Ironwood as brash and bombastic and b) Ironwood's approach to Penny, which has so far remained top-secret, as it should (but won't be for long because of Ozpin's failures). Cite-able evidence as to Ironwood only being able to answer a problem with the maximum, most inadvisable force necessary? So far, none.
I told you this before: it's okay that you've got foreknowledge of future volumes, but there's no sense bringing it up before we get to them.
Vale does NOT have its own military. They have a militia that's made up of huntsmen, which will take time to recall if they're out on missions already. We've seen that with Mistral. We also saw with Mistral that the headmaster does not have the deciding say-so on whether or not to commit forces to an attack; they have to convince the rest of the council, of which the headmaster only has one seat. So yes, aside from the teachers and whatever Huntsmen happen to be available at the time, Ironwood's forces are a big part of the defenses then. And while WE, the VIEWERS, wouldn't know that, the characters would.
''In the ensuing battle, the King of Vale personally led his army alongside Vacuo's.'' There is record of Vale having a military because Vale has participated in wars. Restructuring may have happened in the wake, but there's no evidence of Vale dissolving its military as a whole. Even if in modern-day, their defending force is comprised of Huntsmen and is smaller than a standard defending force, the difference is negligible. They have Huntsmen, they could use them.
This is where I'm cutting things off. I don't mind alternative takes or people pointing out when I've made a mistake, but this is getting a little out of hand. You've understood the important part about Ozpin being dumb here, but you've got it in your head that I'm wrong about Ironwood and so you have to sit here and rub my nose to the grindstone 'til I get why, and it's not taking when you've told me so much that's speculative and assumptive.
If this is the way you're going to approach our disagreements, please feel free to skip the rest of the spork. I find you abrasive, and I really don't care to continue in this vein.
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Date: 2021-03-03 02:42 am (UTC)From:Oobleck realized this after a single day of being in the area and as I pointed out in the post itself, should have remembered it to begin with and not when it was cinematically appropriate. The point is, it's not knowledge he had to stumble on.
Except they aren't a guerilla force. They are extremists who have been taking potshots at dust shops, have primarily been working robberies on this continent, and there are no neighboring cities' ruins we've heard about, so they only place they'd be "rabbiting off" too is deeper into caves that could still be attacked or would subject them to Grimm attacks, or open no-man's-land which belongs entirely to the Grimm. I'm serious--where do you think they'll "rabbit off" to? The only non-hostile place they could go is right back inside the kingdom limits! They also moved in over an unspecified, but likely very long time, because, you know, establishing a full-on base ready to launch an attack takes time. There's no reason to assume they could vanish into thin air in the time it takes for a few airships to swing over, unload a shit ton of artillery, and leave.
Penny happens to be a very good example, as opposed to his so-far established example of fucking up via indiscretion of, uh, let's see, zero. Maybe you don't like Ironwood, but I'm trying to think outside of the in-story perspective, aka, not swallowing the tantrum Glynda and Oz threw painting Ironwood as brash and incautious. Sorry.
That doesn't mean they wouldn't know at all. It just means they have another defense to examine now they've been penetrated and compromised. Physically impassible by conventional means does not mean it isn't on the table.
Yessss, and? The point I'm trying to make here is that you're trying to pin down any decisive action Ironwood or Ozpin could take against the enemy hideout as an inherently bad idea because somehow, some way, the enemy will surely turn it against them, and that's simply not true.
You do not seal up a wall to keep enemies out when the enemies are inside the wall with you. This should not be a difficult concept to grasp. I'm all for defense, I just want it understood that focusing exclusively on it, without even being able to identify the infiltration or compromised material, and giving the enemy time to pounce on it, is a very stupid idea.
Got no idea what that means, but again: they don't have to send everything they have. Why on earth would they need to? It's a hideout, not an entire enemy nation.
That's because I did. You're saying this like I tried to cite something I invented for an essay, and I didn't. It's a subcount. If it were a trope or other established convention, I'd have linked it.
No! I'm not going to work with you here because that's what the goddamn count is meant to tally! It is a count designed to tally how Rooster Teeth have written only two options and completely failed to account for why both should be considered, nevermind more than the ones presented! How did you see me lay out how the fallacy here is about falsely seeing only one available path, and say this?
Can you please try to listen to what I'm saying before you start trying to prove me wrong?
I'm straight up about to just call you on being bad at math. This is narrow-minded as hell, why do you keep acting like any attacking force must comprise enough resources to leave the home base vulnerable? That's not an accurate portrayal of military resources or strategy.
Yes, I have. And this happens to be Volume Two. I am well within my rights to consider only material shown at that point in plots shown at that point! If anything, I don't know why you want to involve material written five years afterwards in a discussion on plausible alternate plots taking place back here. At this point in time, here is our cite-able evidence: a) Glynda throwing a foot-stomping, insulting tantrum designed to paint Ironwood as brash and bombastic and b) Ironwood's approach to Penny, which has so far remained top-secret, as it should (but won't be for long because of Ozpin's failures). Cite-able evidence as to Ironwood only being able to answer a problem with the maximum, most inadvisable force necessary? So far, none.
I told you this before: it's okay that you've got foreknowledge of future volumes, but there's no sense bringing it up before we get to them.
''In the ensuing battle, the King of Vale personally led his army alongside Vacuo's.'' There is record of Vale having a military because Vale has participated in wars. Restructuring may have happened in the wake, but there's no evidence of Vale dissolving its military as a whole. Even if in modern-day, their defending force is comprised of Huntsmen and is smaller than a standard defending force, the difference is negligible. They have Huntsmen, they could use them.
This is where I'm cutting things off. I don't mind alternative takes or people pointing out when I've made a mistake, but this is getting a little out of hand. You've understood the important part about Ozpin being dumb here, but you've got it in your head that I'm wrong about Ironwood and so you have to sit here and rub my nose to the grindstone 'til I get why, and it's not taking when you've told me so much that's speculative and assumptive.
If this is the way you're going to approach our disagreements, please feel free to skip the rest of the spork. I find you abrasive, and I really don't care to continue in this vein.